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abc2330 said:
The drills are the only thing that matters for OL at the combine. If they struggle with movement skills required from OL, they are a hell of a lot more likely to struggle in games than if they just ran .1 second slower than some other guy. Both of which will almost never run 40 yards during an actual contest. Jason Spriggs would be an elite tackle instead a scrub turnstile if those numbers meant much.

Most linemen fail because they can't keep up with pass rushers. Like Kline. Is that not a reflection of his athleticism?
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If the drills were the ONLY thing that mattered for OL at the combine...why do they measure their athletic ability?

The more you try to run away from facts...the more nonsense you’re gonna say.

There is a saying. When you’ve dug yourself a hole...stop digging!!!
 
abc2330 said:
I posted an article. I never said they were good. It's clear that we were looking to upgrade the interior. And getting more athletic was a quote from an analyst regarding Spain getting benched in favor of Jones going to guard and Levin playing center during one of the games. He wasn't as sold on Spain's athletic prowess as you are
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This entire thread is you defending the o line and blaming Mariota for almost all of the sacks lol gtfo here with your backpedaling a$$
 
Gut said:
If the drills were the ONLY thing that mattered for OL at the combine...why do they measure their athletic ability?

The more you try to run away from facts...the more nonsense you’re gonna say.

There is a saying. When you’ve dug yourself a hole...stop digging!!!
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Jonah Williams tested poorly, and it still didn't prevent him from being the first lineman selected. Unless a player tests extremely poorly, teams don't put nearly as much stock in the testing as you believe. They refer to the tape.
 
Dman5TX said:
They only run the 40 at the combine now? No more 3 come drill to show change of direction? No bench to show strength? No broad jump and vertical to show explosiveness?

You can’t even make your mind up on what you stand for? I thought the O line wasn’t a problem... now you are saying Kline can’t keep up with pass rushers??

You are failing to differentiate the difference between being athletic and being a good football player. Those two things are totally different. Just because someone is athletic doesn’t mean he’ll be a good football player or vice versa.
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He’s trying to hold onto the idea that the OL has nothing to do with Mariota getting sacked. When confronted with the reality that we got rid of both of our OG’s and are interested in upgrading OC....he claims it’s just because we want better athletes.

So I was pointing out we didnt get better athletes...we got better players...which supports the idea that the GM agrees we needed better players on the OL.
 
Scheme definitely played a role in our OL...As did poor play by our Guards and Center, and it didn’t help that Conklin wasn’t fully healthy either. I think it’s a mixture of both. I think the line was a bit banged up and unstable, but I also think Mariota didn’t help things by being unsure in the pocket. I’m happy we went and got Saffold and Davis though, it’s pretty sweet. I just hope we can grab a Center in the near future....
 
Gut said:
If the drills were the ONLY thing that mattered for OL at the combine...why do they measure their athletic ability?

The more you try to run away from facts...the more nonsense you’re gonna say.

There is a saying. When you’ve dug yourself a hole...stop digging!!!
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Or reach for the rope not the shovel!
 
abc2330 said:
There are discrepancies between testing numbers and game speed all of the time. Cyprien ran something like a 4.5 and had explosive testing numbers for a safety, yet he looks like he's stuck in mud when he's chasing someone down. Jayon Brown ran a 4.7 and had generally unimpressive testing numbers otherwise, yet he makes plays all over the field and turns out to be an explosive pass rusher. Hooker, the S we just drafted, is evaluated as being a limited athlete , despite his impressive numbers as the combine. There are too many examples to name.

Bottom line, nobody in their right mind would watch Saffold and Kline/Spain play and conclude that Saffold was the least athletic. Combine numbers aren't anything close to an exact science . How athletic you are on the field is what matters
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So again...you’re agreeing that better players were gotten...not better athletes. There is a difference. Better players can maximize their athletic potential on the field...even beyond what they should be able to based on a number of factors. But I digress.

Playing football has certain advantages like that. As one coach once told me...”I’d rather have a 4.5 LB going in the right direction than a 4.3 guy going in the wrong direction.”

Btw...Jayon ran a 4.51 at his pro day. He looks like that on the field.
 
HurrayTitans! said:
Not a big PFF guy but shouldn’t how long the QB holds the ball, how quickly WR get open, how good the defense they play is, and any erroneousl injuries also be taken into account?
Im simply stating the sack stats someone brought up (42 for MM, and 3 seasons with higher for THill) doesn’t just point to THill as worse and neither of those stats are any good. 42 is about 20 too high and that wasn’t even a complete 16 game season. 58 is way too high but at least taking that beating it was over 16 games.
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To really compare...you’d have to evaluate each and every sack. You can’t go by time he holds the ball because a play with a 7 step drop with a hitch step takes a lot longer then a 3 step drop. Also what the d is doing and how many receivers out all are important factors.

So if you wanna go thru 100 sacks...have fun. Easier to just wait until we see them play behind the same OL. Mariota will either play well Orr he won’t. If he doesn’t Orr gets hurt...we’ll see T-hill behind the same line. Then let the arguing re-commence!

Til then there arguments in both sides which can’t be won without the aforementioned process which wouldn’t be agreed upon anyway.
 
Gut said:
To really compare...you’d have to evaluate each and every sack. You can’t go by time he holds the ball because a play with a 7 step drop with a hitch step takes a lot longer then a 3 step drop. Also what the d is doing and how many receivers out all are important factors.

So if you wanna go thru 100 sacks...have fun. Easier to just wait until we see them play behind the same OL. Mariota will either play well Orr he won’t. If he doesn’t Orr gets hurt...we’ll see T-hill behind the same line. Then let the arguing re-commence!

Til then there arguments in both sides which can’t be won without the aforementioned process which wouldn’t be agreed upon anyway.
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Absolutely in agreement. I’ll be saving this exact post for the rest of the whiners and cryers about Mariota and his sack issue. It’s not all him, it’s not all the line. Every sack needs to be looked at from a case by case basis so the sweeping generalizations pretty much hold no water outside a coincidence.
 
abc2330 said:
It doesn't measure play speed. Only game film does. And that's all that matters.
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Really? So take a small school wr that dominates his competition but never plays anyone who will even be drafted. He looks faster than everyone on the field and more athetic and skies over the mini-cb’s he’s playing against.

What draft grade do you give him? Not knowing his height Orr size Orr speed Orr any athletic trait beyond what you see on film...since you think that is all that matters in projecting guys to the NFL.

Is he a top 5 pick like his film and stats suggest? Where do you take him?
 
abc2330 said:
Jonah Williams tested poorly, and it still didn't prevent him from being the first lineman selected. Unless a player tests extremely poorly, teams don't put nearly as much stock in the testing as you believe. They refer to the tape.
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LOL!!! How do you know what I believe regarding the evaluation of a prospect based on athletic testing? I find it funny when you make assumptions and claims I haven’t made...then argue against the thing you just made up.

Athletic testing versus prospect value is not what we are debating. You said we got better athletes. I said we got better players. You sound like you are on my side but just don’t want to admit it when you say pure athletic testing isn’t as important as how they play.

Right?
 
Gut said:
Really? So take a small school wr that dominates his competition but never plays anyone who will even be drafted. He looks faster than everyone on the field and more athetic and skies over the mini-cb’s he’s playing against.

What draft grade do you give him? Not knowing his height Orr size Orr speed Orr any athletic trait beyond what you see on film...since you think that is all that matters in projecting guys to the NFL.

Is he a top 5 pick like his film and stats suggest? Where do you take him?
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Well Pittsburgh just took a WR from as smaller conference who looked fast on tape, but it didn't show up in his testing. If a prospect tests so poorly that it's a legitimate concern, like a RB/WR running a 4.8 , you really have to wonder how that will translate. But as long as he tests within an acceptable range, then you can trust the tape. Every single test consists of longer sustained movement, or jumping. Not how quickly a guy can move in a confined space. It's just not that applicable to what they have to do on the field
 
Gut said:
So again...you’re agreeing that better players were gotten...not better athletes. There is a difference. Better players can maximize their athletic potential on the field...even beyond what they should be able to based on a number of factors. But I digress.

Playing football has certain advantages like that. As one coach once told me...”I’d rather have a 4.5 LB going in the right direction than a 4.3 guy going in the wrong direction.”

Btw...Jayon ran a 4.51 at his pro day. He looks like that on the field.
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And if it takes the 4.3 LB a fraction of a second longer to diagnose what is happening and react, his entire speed advantage is nullified.

Mental speed and instinct matters more than raw physical speed.
 
TitansWrath said:
And if it takes the 4.3 LB a fraction of a second longer to diagnose what is happening and react, his entire speed advantage is nullified.

Mental speed and instinct matters more than raw physical speed.
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OL are like QBs. You assume that their numbers aren't going to blow you away. What's important is their reactionary quickness, which you'll see on tape and may not necessarily be represented in testing. Which is why Mariota can test in the 92nd-99th percentile in all athletic measurements, yet has trouble avoiding pass rushers on the field
 
abc2330 said:
Well Pittsburgh just took a WR from as smaller conference who looked fast on tape, but it didn't show up in his testing. If a prospect tests so poorly...
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I see you didn't answer my question. Can you answer given no measurements or athletic testing? In the above paragraph you give yourself an out..."If a prospect tests so poorly..." but you previously said it doesn't matter, ONLY the tape is important. So which is it? First you say it's ONLY the tape, now you say it's the tape BUT...

So can you answer my question?

Lastly, what is the purpose of this ridiculous departure off the original discussion. Do you agree we got better players and not better athletes?
 
TitansWrath said:
And if it takes the 4.3 LB a fraction of a second longer to diagnose what is happening and react, his entire speed advantage is nullified.

Mental speed and instinct matters more than raw physical speed.
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it's worse, his speed works AGAINST him since he'll be moving really fast in the wrong direction. In the NFL, standing still for .5 seconds not moving is enough time to give an OL an angle on you. If you take that .5 seconds and move in the wrong direction, it'll take much longer to stop and go in the right direction...far too late.

Reading keys, film study so you know tendencies out of different formations or player packages, and core play types and what players like to do help speed up the process. That's why with LB's we are always talking about guys who see the play and guys or are a step slow to diagnose.
 
Gut said:
Really? So take a small school wr that dominates his competition but never plays anyone who will even be drafted. He looks faster than everyone on the field and more athetic and skies over the mini-cb’s he’s playing against.

What draft grade do you give him? Not knowing his height Orr size Orr speed Orr any athletic trait beyond what you see on film...since you think that is all that matters in projecting guys to the NFL.

Is he a top 5 pick like his film and stats suggest? Where do you take him?
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Not sure what you guys are arguing about, but to answer your question. Yes, you take that wr top 5 and his name is Corey Davis. Eye in the sky dont lie, didn't need combine numbers to know CD was a good wr.
 
Gut said:
One time? Does he do that all the time? No. Most of the time in that situation he gets sacked like everyone else. But the defender also just pushed him instead of grabbing him.

And there are a lot more people than this guy thinks that can make that throw on planet earth. At least half the qb's in the NFL can and a lot more outside the NFL who have the arm strength but not anything else.

Check out some youtube vids of guys throwing farther than that from their knees. One clip of Mahomes supposedly throwing it 100yds but you can't see where it lands so its probably more likely in the 70's or so.
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I know eh

Cool, Tanny made a good throw once

giphy.webp
 
More I watch of this kansas state rb alex barnes the more I like him! I think he could well make the team and be our rb number 3
 
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